Talk:East Jerusalem

Another easy typo

"Palestinians resident" should be "Palestinian residents" EduardoFernandez (talk) 13:35, 29 June 2022 (UTC)

done, ty, nableezy - 17:48, 29 June 2022 (UTC)

Refuse

It seems unlikely that most East Jerusalem Arab residents "refuse" to become citizens. There is no source for this claim. Each person's choice, or lack thereof, is dependent on their situation and it is not up to Wikipedia to paint them in such a broad brush. I will reword the sentence within the next couple of days if nobody objects. GHcool (talk) 19:07, 12 July 2022 (UTC)

If they aren't citizens, isn't it because they refuse to become one, since they are eligible to do so? Regardless of why they do so, they still refuse to do so. [1], [2], [3] etc. Sir Joseph ^(talk) 20:16, 12 July 2022 (UTC)

Just 5 Percent of E. Jerusalem Palestinians Have Received Israeli Citizenship Since 1967....(and) over 14,000 Palestinians living in East Jerusalem have had their residency status revoked, something that cannot be done to citizens Why don't you try and summarize this? Or I will, if you like. What's the takeaway? A few are taking up citizenship, probably a few more would have if the authorities were less obstructionist but at the end of it all it isn't that many, 219 for the first quarter of this year and residency has been revoked for nearly as many as were given citizenship. Selfstudier (talk) 21:51, 12 July 2022 (UTC)

revocation of residency is not the same thing as citizenship stuff. Right now we're discussing citizenship and your source even says only 5 percent has citizenship. Sir Joseph ^(talk) 13:50, 13 July 2022 (UTC)

Residency and citizenship are discussed in the article but as it happens we are in agreement for once, these figures stand in rather stark contrast to the supposed desire of East Jerusalem PcoI for Israeli citizenship according to a poll which only two years ago said it was 15% but now says it is 48%. If this desire exists, why are they not applying? Can't find the forms? Selfstudier (talk) 13:58, 13 July 2022 (UTC)

The are applying (or a least were), but many (most?) applications are rejected. https://www.timesofisrael.com/israel-almost-entirely-halts-citizenship-approvals-for-east-jerusalemites/ Izzy Borden (talk) 21:37, 13 July 2022 (UTC)

The figures for applications and refusals are right there in the source I provided "Over the past 20 years, only 38 percent of the 16,573 applications have been approved." This is a very small amount in relation to a pop of nearly 400K. Selfstudier (talk) 21:41, 13 July 2022 (UTC)

and perhaps others see applying as futile, given rejection rates. The point is, we are not here to second guess opinion polls reported by mainstream media. Izzy Borden (talk) 21:56, 13 July 2022 (UTC)

I am pointing up a relevant source and I will be including material from it (and other relevant material) in the article in due course and will leave it to readers to decide what to make of it. Also, fyi, Fikra Forum is not mainstream media, it's a blog, that's why it is attributed to the individual (who I will protem accept as an expert per WP:SPS) that "supervised" the poll (of 300 people with 6% margin of error). Selfstudier (talk) 22:08, 13 July 2022 (UTC)

Haaretz is mainstream media. They reported on it. Izzy Borden (talk) 22:11, 13 July 2022 (UTC)

The better source tags were not added to Haaretz, tags apply to the source they follow. On top of which the poor sources that were actually tagged have been left in (IH and JISS, both relatively poor sources) Care to put them back? Or remove the poor ones if you want to just rely on Haaretz. Selfstudier (talk) 22:22, 13 July 2022 (UTC)

There's no need to place that tag when there are other reliable sources given for the sentence in question, just remove the unreliable sources. I have no idea about JISS, but Israel Hayom is a mainstream newspaper, and not problematic. Izzy Borden (talk) 22:57, 13 July 2022 (UTC)

I'll sort it out myself when I get around to fixing up the article. Selfstudier (talk) 23:01, 13 July 2022 (UTC)

I don't think Israel Hayom is reliable at all for Palestinian opinion. The story claims to be reporting a poll published by the Palestine News Network, but where is it? Lots of polls are on the PNN site but I don't find this one, nor should we trust Israel Hayom's account of it. Zero^talk 00:12, 15 July 2022 (UTC)

Agreed on all counts. nableezy - 00:49, 15 July 2022 (UTC)

It's not PNN, it's Shfa PNN which is banned by the PA. If you google the idiotic headline "93% of east Jerusalem Arabs prefer Israeli rule, poll shows" you will find it repeated by the usual suspects. It is directly contradicted by the following sentence in the article so I am going to take this out shortly if no one objects. Selfstudier (talk) 15:33, 21 July 2022 (UTC)

WINEP is a garbage source for Palestinian opinion too though. nableezy - 15:52, 21 July 2022 (UTC)

Probably need to deal with that one a bit differently, FIKRA is a blog but Pollock has been doing these polls since 2010, the point is that they are all over the shop, 2010 (35%), 2011 (42%), early 2015 (52%), late 2015 (15%) ! and stays at 15% until 2020 and now suddenly back to 48% so that needs to be brought out somehow. And as I said before it doesn't jive with the Harretz stats on applications for citizenship. Working on it. Selfstudier (talk) 16:03, 21 July 2022 (UTC)

• Comment: There is some really odd false equivalence at work here, largely born out of the poor design of the surveys around which these types of stories are based. East Jerusalem Palestinians don't have options. Of the hypothetical options presented in some of these surveys, such as Israeli citizenship, Palestinian citizenship, or in some cases, the third option of Jordanian citizenship, only one even has an actual theoretical pathway within the context of continuing to live in East Jerusalem: Israeli citizenship. East Jerusalem Palestinians are otherwise bound to a perpetual Kafkaesque state of legal limbo. Certain questions are actually several, such as: would you like to live in Jerusalem under Israeli rule or have East Jerusalem handed over to the PA. This is portrayed as a referendum on Israeli vs Palestinian rule, but that isn't really the case, is it? Because Palestinian rule isn't actually self-rule, and living under the PA still involves living under Israeli rule as well, so it's just the option between one or two layers of Kafkaesque bureaucracy. And secondly, the question also entails the question of whether they want their city split. Most Jerusalemites, understandably, probably don't want their city split. Unless we appreciate that the very nature of these surveys is hopelessly POV at the very outset due to the exceptionally conflated nature of their framing and leading questions, everyone is going to continue to talk at cross purposes. Iskandar323 (talk) 17:35, 15 July 2022 (UTC)3, 15 July 2022 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 31 October 2022

Change 'the 1967 annex of East Jerusalem.' to 'the 1967 annexation of East Jerusalem.'. Stowgull (talk) 20:59, 31 October 2022 (UTC)

done, with an added word. nableezy - 21:07, 31 October 2022 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 25 August 2023

Please change ′In 2022, East Jerusalem had a population of 595,000 inhabitants′ to ′In 2020, East Jerusalem had a population of 595,000 inhabitants′. Although the source document is published in 2022, the data are for 2020. --Smaug the Golden (talk - contributions - logs) 17:15, 25 August 2023 (UTC)

 Done, thanks. Zero^talk 02:04, 26 August 2023 (UTC)

Who is a settler? What is a settlement?

The article states:

"In 2020, East Jerusalem had a population of 595,000 inhabitants, of which 361,700 (61%) were Palestinian Arabs and 234,000 (39%) Jewish settlers. The international community regards the Israeli settlements illegal under international law."

It is not clear to me as a reader who a "settler" is. The percentages adding up to 100% seem to imply it is simply an ethnic test - A Jew is a settler and an Arab is not a settler.

Is this the intended meaning? Are Israeli Arabs that moved into a Ring settlement not settlers? Likewise, is a Jew even living in the Jewish Quarter a settler?

At minimum, this paragraph needs to be better written. "Settlements" is not even defined here and is confusing given that "settlers" don't seem to map to the people actually living in the East Jerusalem settlements and if "settlers" is determined solely by ethnicity (and not say who lives in settlement blocks) we should be explicit: "In 2020, East Jerusalem had a population of 595,000 inhabitants, of which 361,700 (61%) were Palestinian Arabs and 234,000 (39%) Jews. The latter in this article shall be referred to as settlers".

Usaar33 (talk) 00:02, 20 July 2024 (UTC)

Given that there is a link to Israeli settlement right there, and that article says "Israeli settlements, also called Israeli colonies,[1][2][3][4] are the civilian communities built by Israel throughout the Israeli-occupied territories. They are populated by Israeli citizens, almost exclusively of Jewish identity or ethnicity,[5][6][7] and were built on lands occupied by Israel since the Six-Day War in 1967.[8]", it does not appear to lack clarity or imply an "ethnic test" as far as I can tell. If you would like to propose alternative wording that makes it clear that settlers are Israeli citizens living outside of Israel across the green line in the territories under Israel occupation, you can do that and extended confirmed editors will consider it. Sean.hoyland (talk) 04:49, 20 July 2024 (UTC)

My recommended language is to simply drop the word "settlers" given the current sourcing. The source for the 234,000 Jewish settlers appears to be the first one, which is stating 234,000 Jews, not Jewish settlers (actually it is 233,900). Likewise the 361,700 Palestinian Arabs is coming also from that source as well, a number which would include Israeli Arabs living inside settlement blocks.

In other words, the author appears to have simply taken the number of Jews and appended the word "settlers" to them hence why it appears to me as the reader to just be defined by ethnicity. Considering only residents of settlement blocks seemingly drops the number -- e.g. there are 3,000 Jews residing in the Old City, which is not considered a "settlement" per the list elsewhere on wikipedia. Usaar33 (talk) 06:58, 20 July 2024 (UTC)

It might be worth clarifying this distinction actually, yes, if it can be sourced. Finding a source providing a delineation may be the problem, however. Iskandar323 (talk) 08:01, 20 July 2024 (UTC)

From yesterday's ICJ opinion:

"By 2023, approximately 465,000 settlers resided in the West Bank, spread across around 300 settlements and outposts, while some 230,000 settlers resided in East Jerusalem (see “Israeli settlements in the Occupied Palestinian Territory, including East Jerusalem, and in the occupied Syrian Golan”, Report of the United Nations High Commissioner for Human Rights, UN doc. A/HRC/55/72 (1 February 2024), para. 9). The residents of settlements and “outposts” in the Occupied Palestinian Territory (“settlers”) are predominantly Israelis, as well as non-Israeli Jews who qualify for Israeli nationality under Israeli legislation." Selfstudier (talk) 08:07, 20 July 2024 (UTC)

That'll do. Side note, but does that mean that there are some non-Israeli Jews that have rejected citizenship? Iskandar323 (talk) 08:11, 20 July 2024 (UTC)

Could be but I don't think that need concern us overmuch. Selfstudier (talk) 08:12, 20 July 2024 (UTC)