Talk:The Notorious Byrd Brothers

Fricke liner notes

Is this available to read online?--Ilovetopaint (talk) 22:22, 27 May 2018 (UTC)

Sorry for the late reply, I've been away on holiday. Umm...I don't think they would be available online, possibly because of copyright concerns??? Were you asking with regard to the, "It came to be widely regarded as one of the Byrds' best LP releases, as well as their most experimental and progressive" sentence, which I see you've twice now put a "text integrity tag" next to? If so, I'll have a look at Fricke's booklet essay and quote the relevant bits verbatim for you, if you'd like? --Kohoutek1138 (talk) 18:58, 21 June 2018 (UTC)

@Kohoutek1138: Yeah I'd also like a direct quote regarding the genres. I noticed that the other source mentions "chamber pop", yet that wasn't included in the text, which makes me think that it was arbitrarily replaced with "baroque pop" (saying that this album "contains elements of baroque pop" is a big red flag; it doesn't, really).--Ilovetopaint (talk) 06:51, 23 June 2018 (UTC)

I'll check the notes, but I'm happy to replace baroque pop with chamber pop, if the Fricke source doesn't specifically name that genre. Though it may well do. --Kohoutek1138 (talk) 15:47, 25 June 2018 (UTC)

@Ilovetopaint: I took a look at Fricke's liner notes: he describes the album's second track ("Goin' Back") as, "a baroque pop masterpiece that floated to heaven on wisps of pedal steel and harpsichord", which is possibly where the mention of baroque pop comes from. In addition, he also describes the album as a whole as "reconfiguring the rich catalog of styles and traditions in [the Byrds'] trademark sound", and then makes reference to "McGuinn's folk-rock 12-string Rickenbacker" and "Hillman's country and bluegrass influence" as examples of those 'styles and traditions'.

Tim Conners' article on the Byrdwatcher site also references "Goin' Back" by saying "Like most of the Notorious tracks, it's leavened with hints of country (the pedal steel of Red Rhodes), electronic rock (a Moog synthesizer), and Sgt. Pepper-style chamber pop (a celeste, cello and harp)." Conners also cites "Natural Harmony" as a song that showed "that Crosby was not the only Byrd with an interest in jazz", clearly meaning that it is a jazz-influenced song.

However, the source that actually best supports the Wikipedia article's second sentence is reference #27 -- pages 240-247 of Johnny Rogan's Timeless Flight. Rogan writes, "The Notorious Byrd Brothers displayed the Byrds at the height of their creative powers and psychedelic experimentation. Their achievement on the album lay in creating a seamless mood piece from blending a variety of different musical sources ... jazz and psychedelia ("Natural Harmony"), country picking and psychedelic rock ("I Wasn't Born to Follow"), country and baroque pop ("Old John Robertson"), folk rock and the Moog synthesizer ("Space Odyssey").

So, my suggestion would be to move the Rogan reference to the end of the article's second sentence -- it may have been there originally and has gotten moved by another editor over time, or maybe I simply forgot it. Anyway, by moving the Rogan reference to support that sentence, I think all of those genres mentioned are covered, with two of the sources (Rogan & Connors) describing the blending of different styles or genres on the record. --Kohoutek1138 (talk) 17:16, 28 June 2018 (UTC)

Sensible stuff here. I think Rogan is the leader in Byrdology, and his comments are spot on. However, he has made serious changes to the original Timeless flight book, two huge doorstops - Requiem For The Timeless Vols 1 and 2Muso805 (talk) 10:08, 15 June 2020 (UTC)

"genre warring"

Funnily enough Kohoutek1138, I think there'd probably be a good deal less "genre warring" if you actually bothered to make the supporting claims visible anywhere in the article. A friendly tip. gentlecollapse6 (talk) 15:46, 4 January 2021 (UTC)

Sorry Gentlecollapse6, I've only just seen this message (I haven't been on Wiki for a few days). I get your point and I see in the guidelines over at Template: Infobox album it suggests that genres should "be stated and referenced in the body of the article", rather than in the infobox itself (unless they are controversial genres, I assume). I'll take a look at the article, and if that's not the case, I'll rectify it. It shouldn't be hard to do: it's not like we're suggesting the album is something unlikely such as Garage Rock or Synth Pop. --Kohoutek1138 (talk) 19:37, 9 January 2021 (UTC)

Clarke's Participation.

Dear Kohoutek1138 --

Greetings — I recently submitted the following edits:

1) "…Clarke was replaced in August 1967 during the second set of recording sessions, only returning briefly…"

2) "…Clarke quit the sessions after having played on two songs, over disputes with Crosby…"

3) " Michel Clarke — drums on "Artificial Energy", "Draft Morning", "Old John Robertson", and "Change Is Now" ("Universal Mind Decoder")"

3) "Jim Gordon – drums on "Goin' Back", "Natural Harmony", "Wasn't Born to Follow", "Bound to Fall", "Tribal Gathering", "Dolphin's Smile", and "Triad" "

In response, you wrote, Reverting edits that are mostly wrong -- Rogan's sessionography says Clarke plays on "Change Is Now" and the version of "Tribal Gathering" that's on the album. Also, changes to the article lede were too detailed: was better how it was.  Please note, nevertheless, that my information was taken from Rogan’s book, Timeless Flight Revisited — The Sequel, and is fully correct as of its July 2001 revision date.  As you mention Rogan as well, could it be that this information was revised post-2001?  Otherwise, I invite you to discuss my edits based on not only Rogan’s information but also the aural evidence.  (Note: I stated that Clarke indeed played on "Change Is Now"; therefore, your comment may be misplaced.)

Awaiting your reply.

Best regards

James O. 2600:1700:7800:2A30:297C:F2CD:8383:7F0C (talk) 03:05, 31 August 2024 (UTC)

Hi James O, I'm drawing the sessionography information from the most up-to-date version, as printed in Johnny Rogan's 2011 book, Byrds: Requiem for the Timeless, Volume 1, and then cross-referencing it with Christopher Hjort's 2008 book and Ric Menck's 33⅓ book from 2007 (though I will always give more weight to Rogan if there is ever a discrepancy, because he's by far the most accurate source in these matters). Apologies if you had "Change Is Now" correct in your edits, I must've got confused!

I don't think it is really accurate to say that Clarke was absent from the studio after the second set of recording sessions for the album because there were actually seven days worth of sessions between April 26th, 1967 and June 21st, 1967 that Clarke participated in. Yes, I know that "Lady Friend" wasn't included on the album, but it was always in contention for the follow-up to Younger Than Yesterday...well, until it flopped as a single anyway! So, even the earliest "Don't Make Waves" and "Lady Friend" sessions in April 1967 were, in effect, recording sessions for the album (even though that's not how we are supposed to measure recordings sessions on Wikipedia in the article infoboxes).

But regardless of whether you consider sessions for the album to have started in April '67 or June '67, stating how many recording sessions Clarke had attended before walking out of the studio is too trivial for the article lede, I think. The lede should only summarise the most important points from the article.

I checked my copy of Timeless Flyte Revisited - The Sequel (Revised 2nd Edition) and the sessionorgraphy there is the same as in Byrds: Requiem for the Timeless, Volume 1, in that it credits Clarke with playing drums on the version of "Tribal Gathering" that is on the album. There was an earlier version of "Tribal Gathering" attempted with Jim Gordon on drums between 14-18th August. This earlier version received additional overdubs in late August and November, but it was ultimately rejected and remains unreleased. The version of the song on the album was committed to tape during sessions on December 5th and 6th, 1967, with Clarke playing the drums.

Hope that explains things a bit more?

Regards, Kohoutek1138 (talk) 17:05, 31 August 2024 (UTC)