Jump to content

Talk:Gary Ridgway

Page contents not supported in other languages.
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Abusive father

[edit]

It's mentioned in this article that he had a terrible mother. He actually had two terrible parents. His father was controlling and very violent. Some neighbors witnessed the beatings are were horrified, even though corporal punishment was common back then. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2607:FCC8:AD08:EC00:346F:8017:60CD:DA07 (talk) 05:38, 12 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

DNA?

[edit]

Okay where it says, "The DNA samples collected in 1987 were later subjected to a DNA analysis," I feel that is incorrect. In 1987 they would not have collected "DNA samples" since we didn't have that technology then. Simply, "The samples collected in 1987 were later subjected to a DNA analysis," would suffice. That said, I'm changing it. If I'm wrong, fine. Just please provide a source that states the samples taken were for DNA as the sentence implies. MagnoliaSouth (talk) 22:14, 22 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Either would work. DNA analysis was used for the first time to convict a suspect (AND exonerate an innocent man) in 1987. I think that even if the technology was not developed, the task force knew what they were doing when they collected the sample. Ridgway could have been naild much earlier if there was not such a backlog in the crime lab testing facility. Even then, the evidence was circumstantial - his DNA was there because he had sex with those prostitutes. So did others. It is the nature of the "profession". 47.137.185.148 (talk) 03:24, 17 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Silence of the Lambs

[edit]

86.18.80.97 (talk) 16:51, 10 December 2011 (UTC) Should this article mention the fact that he is an inspiration for buffalo bill in silence of the lambs?[reply]

I've never heard that he (rather The Green River Killer, as Ridgway was identified long after the novel and film came out) was a direct inspiration for the Buffalo Bill character - do you have a source? Gein was an inspiration for the flesh suit aspect (and Lecter's cannibalism), and Bundy was an inspiration for at least two things: feigning injury to abduct Catherine Martin, and consulting with him in order to catch another serial killer. In Bundy's case, the killer they were seeking his advice on was the Green River Killer, but that would be more of an inspiration for Lecter's character. If you can find a good source on this it should be added. Doc talk 17:01, 10 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
There are three main ways for a serial killer to acquire victims.
You can just walk up to them and hit them in the head, strangle them, or shoot them. David Berkowitz and Zodiac shot people, Dennis "BTK" Rader strangled his victims after invading their home, and Ted Bundy hit the Chi Omega sorority sisters in the head ( a marked departure from his usual feigning injury or impersonating a cop method). Bundy's last murder of Kim Leach was a standard snatch and grab - that 12 year old girl never had a chance, though Ted did mix it up a bit by pretending to be a firefighter).
The second way is to "woo" your victim. Jeffrey Dahmer was a master at this. He would chat up men at bars, invite them to his apartment for drinks and possible money if they would let him take nude photographs, and once there he would put sleeping pills in their drink and wait like a cat playing with a mouse. Once passed out he would strangle them, dismember their body parts, store the parts, and sometimes eat them.
Bundy would pretend to be injured (he worked at a hospital supply store and had access to crutches, or he would portray an authority figure (Carol DaRonch was almost lured to her death because she thought Bundy was a cop trying to track down a car burglar). Bundy was suave and convincing in most of his murders, he was able to talk the women into their doom.
The final way is to be a "john". Ridgway fits this method. He sought out prostitutes because they were easy prey. They literally walked into his truck because he promised them cold hard cash. Ridgway had a bit of con in his game because he had a picture of his son on his dash (appealing to the maternal instincts of the women he preyed upon - this nice guy with a kid can't be the killer we are all afraid of!) but his m.o. was simple profit motive. He had the money and the women wanted it. Once they struck a deal he became their worst nightmare.
Buffalo Bill was a con and manipulator. He may have gone after some prostitutes, but his character was more about what he did after {the pit - Heidnik and skinning- Gein, - not what he did to catch his prey.
No, Buffalo Bill was no Ridgway 47.137.185.148 (talk) 05:30, 23 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Picture request

[edit]

It's a bit odd that the article for Americans most prolific serial killer doesn't have a single image. 202.171.168.178 (talk) 12:28, 18 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

There was one here, and I'll look into it: but dealing with WP:FU images will burn you out quickly. Doc talk 12:46, 18 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Add to lead ranking

[edit]

I think we should add he is the most prolific American serial killer to the lead. or something interesting like that. Cuz 49 is a lot of people. And I thought they said serial killers do not hunt outside of their ethnic group?--Inayity (talk) 14:46, 4 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I've never heard American be called an ethnicity. There was one serial killer named Armstrong who killed all over the world. He was a sailor on a U.S. Navy ship and liked to take extra "liberty" when the ship was in a foriegn port. He finally got caught in his hometown of Detroit because he couldn't lay off of the local prostitutes. 47.137.185.148 (talk) 03:28, 17 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The man I am thinking of is John Eric Armstrong. He isn't exactly obscure, if you are aware of serial killers. I think that he rates his own page (not trying to glorify him, just saying that he is notable. 47.137.185.148 (talk) 14:26, 23 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

DNA prior to 1995

[edit]

There are many police departments that correctly preserved DNA prior to 1995. It's actually how they're currently able to solve cold cases.

Ted Bundy and Rodney Alcala are both believed to have murdered over 100 females. Bundy and Alcala were also more intelligent than Ridgway. If they had the DNA testing back when Ridgway was killing that we have today, he would have been caught early on. 108.31.41.5 (talk) 09:54, 27 April 2014 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.31.41.5 (talk) 09:31, 27 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

First Wife

[edit]

The article says:

At age 21, after graduating from high school, Ridgway married his high school girlfriend Marcia Winslow. ... the marriage ended within a year.

yet this person is not named in the list of spouses. (Or she may be under a different name, but this is undocumented.) Co149 (talk) 01:32, 13 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Suspected victim

[edit]

An anonymous poster indicated two years ago that Ridgeway was ruled out as the murderer of Rose Marie Kurran, A.K.A. "Curran." I'm unable to find any such reference, despite an extensive search for a source. Activist (talk) 11:27, 25 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

[edit]

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified one external link on Gary Ridgway. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 5 June 2024).

  • If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
  • If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 08:31, 8 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

[edit]

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified 3 external links on Gary Ridgway. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 5 June 2024).

  • If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
  • If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 22:13, 19 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

[edit]

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified one external link on Gary Ridgway. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 5 June 2024).

  • If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
  • If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 13:45, 11 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Airway Heights

[edit]

The article stated: "Roughly around 2005, Ridgway made more pleas with the Federal government and was transferred to Airway Heights where he was put in a minimum-medium security tank." I have removed this entry for a number of reasons:

  • Airway Heights Corrections Center is a corrections centre that has a maximum security section, I cannot believe that his security status would be changed. Allegedly he was sent to Colorado for financial reasons, but also so he could be evaluated independantly. It was feared that he would be at risk if he remained in Washington State. His security status was as much for his own protection as part of his incarceration.
  • The statement is not referenced
  • The statement cannot be corroberated by reliable sources (most reference Wikipedia)
  • This statement seems to be in contradiction of reliable sources, such as the references in the article, where it is stated that he was transferred from Walla Walla.

JHvW 11:09, 24 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

[edit]

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified 7 external links on Gary Ridgway. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 5 June 2024).

  • If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
  • If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 13:46, 9 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Douglas

[edit]

47.137.185.148: I have no particular problem with your last edit, but in response to your edit summary: If you again remove a link from this or another article as "dead" without even attempting to find an archived copy of the URL at archive.org, I will indeed revert it (without discussion on the Talk page). Also, it sounds as if you may be relying on original research rather than published sources for at least some of your edits, and are strongly cautioned about doing so. General Ization Talk 03:21, 17 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

No original research at all. The reference says that Douglas has written 8 books. That is true. None of them are exclusively about the Green River Killer. None of the major books in GRK historiography say that Douglas was a major investigator. He is noteworthy in terms of Ridgway because the FBI was asked to bring some expertise to the investigation and Douglas is the one who came. He was a consultant, played a role, and that is what the article as it stands says. As to Douglas being ill during his visit and not doing all that much in Seattle, Douglas says that himself in his book. He almost died. 47.137.185.148 (talk) 04:33, 18 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Add animal killings as section?

[edit]

In https://www.youtube.com/embed/AwOJ4_-1Uq0?start=255 he mentions, "I killed a lot of birds...one cat...shot BBs at dogs"

Citations in beginning paragraphs

[edit]

I believe that all of the citations within this article stand to strong evidence and reason. But i do think that the opening paragraph is one that needs to showcase a lot more proven information with citations. i just think that the information given within the first few paragraphs need to be backed up and made sure that they are valid. Haileylfox (talk) 02:06, 17 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Please fix the factual sexist errors.

[edit]

The page states he had "sexual intercourse with" the bodies of his victims, and that he "had a love/hate relationship" with prostitutes. The former statement indicates a shared participatory act rather than corpse violation or assault. The latter is offensive imagination and nonsense. Calling any feelings he had for a group he murdered in large quantity "love" perpetuates glib misconception at best -- and lethal misogyny at worst.

Not everyone can edit this page, but anyone can read it. I can't imagine how many people would access it in the time it would take to raise this concern via the 'talk' or message boards, but it's easy to imagine the results of spreading this way of thinking. Please revise your standards to make it clear dead women don't have sex with their murderers and wanting to pay prostitutes AND murder them isn't loving and hating them. 

Marie Casey Stevens (talk) 13:01, 21 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The term "sexual intercourse" in no way indicates a shared participatory act. It just describes an act--anything beyond that you are reading into it. As for the "love-hate relationship" phrasing, it conveys Ridgway's simultaneous attraction and repulsion to prostitutes. Again, I'd suggest that your read here is overly sensitive, but if you think there is better language (that retains the current succinctness), it can be changed. Despite your assertion that Not everyone can edit this page, Wikipedia is, in fact, the encyclopedia anyone can edit; calling upon others to make edits you could just make yourself won't result in much. Grandpallama (talk) 15:40, 21 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I would add that he didn't have sex with "sex workers" but criminal prostitutes.
Someone committing robbery isn't a "worker" and street prostitute isn't a "worker" either.
The term is very important because how it characterizes victims of killers, who are frequently prostitutes. These are women with a trauma history, drug problems, mental problems, and horrible economic situations. Meanwhile, a "sex worker" is a bourgeois term that makes it sound like the woman has support, a profession, and even some kind of union, when in reality being a street prostitute is illegal, super dangerous, and can create a life ruining record if you're arrested. 2601:49:4300:C540:0:0:0:DAA0 (talk) 18:16, 27 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Kase(e) Ann Lee (née Woods)

[edit]

Due to an early transcription error by a member of the investigative team, Kasee's name is found with two spellings: Kase and Kasee. I'm Kasee's brother and this error is a painful reminder of the runaround my mother got as she pursued justice for her daughter over many (many) years, prior to Gary's confession. As perhaps the most definitive reporting on the subject, this Wikipedia article will likely be the go-to source for details on the case for years to come. It is, therefore, important to Kasee's family that the article spell her name correctly.

Of course, an impassioned plea from surviving relatives is not a bonafide source… so I'm coming to you all ask how I might verify (to the extent possible) the correct spelling and (perhaps) protect the spelling from being changed going forward.

For whatever it's worth, my quick and documented argument in favor of Kasee's name goes something like this: that while the Seattle Times article [1] repeatedly writes Kasee's name as "Kase", they also establish that Marilyn Harrison was her mother and Tony Lee was her husband. In the King's Co marriage records, Kasee's marriage to Anthony (Tony) Craig Lee is recorded and her name is written as "Kasee Woods" [2] and [3]. And in Marilyn Harrison's obituary, Kasee is referenced as having preceded Marilyn in death… and her name is, once again, written as "Kasee" [4].

Please advise as to how best document the correct spelling of my sister's name. — Silus Grok (talk) 23:26, 11 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Silus Krok: It's odd how this was never corrected. I hope you have (or will) contact investigative agencies to correct this, as her name is universally spelled as "Kase" in missing person databases. I apologize for continuing to change her name back. I will provide a footnote that acknowledges the alternate spelling. --GouramiWatcherTalk 19:21, 13 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Gourami Watcher: That footnote appears to solve the problem. Thank you. — Silus Grok (talk) 01:00, 16 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ http://www.seattletimes.nwsource.com/news/local/greenriver/1987/part3.html
  2. ^ https://www.ancestry.com/interactive/2378/86776077_ce53f5bf-613a-43d5-ba3b-3a29b0faed9c?pid=3180705&backurl=https://search.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv%3D1%26dbid%3D2378%26h%3D3180705%26ssrc%3Dpt%26tid%3D70723199%26pid%3D48228340187%26usePUB%3Dtrue&ssrc=pt&treeid=70723199&personid=48228340187&hintid=&usePUB=true&usePUBJs=true&_ga=2.132244550.972209000.1560294756-519510477.1536961350
  3. ^ https://www.digitalarchives.wa.gov/Record/View/C88AAC0CAFA7C9181C8A70E7C9FC9C6A
  4. ^ https://www.legacy.com/obituaries/spokesman/obituary.aspx?n=marilyn-l-harrison&pid=175049037

In documentaries and films (fiction and non-fiction)

[edit]
 Not done. It's not clear what changes you want to make. –Deacon Vorbis (carbon • videos) 13:44, 3 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Semi protected edit request

[edit]

Request to add line to "In documentaries and films" section as follows:

[1] 72.185.59.101 (talk) 19:09, 9 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

 Done. ◢  Ganbaruby!  (Say hi!) 09:53, 26 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ Buck, Aimee. "Morbid Motivation to Murder Revealed in ID's THE GREEN RIVER KILLER: MIND OF A MONSTER" (PDF). Discovery Press Web. Discovery Communications, Inc. Retrieved September 9, 2020.

Convictions

[edit]

The article introduction states that Ridgway was "initially convicted of 48 murders". A conviction is a verdict, and Ridgway pled guilty before trial, so for the benefit of lay persons, wouldn't it be more accurate to say that he "initially pled guilty?" Matuko (talk) 09:12, 24 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Semi-protected edit request on 28 December 2021

[edit]

Source for "In 2003, Philadelphia power electronics duo Deathpile released G.R., a concept album about Ridgway and his murders." in section 7.5 (Popular Culture -> In Music)

https://web.archive.org/web/20131225192807/http://destroyedhuman.blogspot.ie/2013/05/whos-laughing-now-decade-of-deathpiles.html Eramne (talk) 21:15, 28 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

 Not done: Blogs are not reliable sources. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 22:22, 28 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Semi-protected edit request on 4 January 2021

[edit]

Semi-protected edit request on 4 November 2022

[edit]

Though Detectives Keppel and Reichert visited with Bundy in prison, per Bundy's request, they were NOT given any information of value which they did not already know. Bundy referred to the killer as The Riverman. All of the information given to Reichert and Keppel was already known to them; however, they did leave the file with Bundy. The file was removed from Bundy's possession the following day as he was found pleasuring himself to the contents. Finally, the underlying reason for the detectives agreeing to Bundy's request for a meeting was to gain insight into Bundy's mind and possibly get more information about his victims. It is often claimed that Bundy "helped" with the case, but this is categorically untrue, and source of consternation to law enforcement involved in the case. (Source: Sherriff Dave Reichert, RET,and Dr. Bill Haglund, Chief Death Investigator, King County Medical Examiner's Office during this time).

The identifying DNA was collected from the first victim in 1982, and a piece of gauze chewed by Ridgway in 1987 was collected and stored for hopeful advances in forensic technology. (Dr. Haglund, as well as reported in the NY Times). 63.239.193.130 (talk) 01:45, 4 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Aoidh (talk) 03:17, 4 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Possible Connection between one of Ridgway’s suspected victims known as “Unidentified Black Female/Michelle”, and another missing persons case of a Black woman known as Michelle Ellis.

[edit]

Michelle Ellis, who is a Black female, went missing on August 2, 1978. On December 11, 1980, two years and four months after her disappearance, Ellis's parents got a phone call from someone who said "This is Michelle." The caller then hung up and never called back. It hasn't been verified that the caller was in fact Ellis. She has never been heard from again; her case remains unsolved. Strangely, the Unidentified Black Female, who is one of Ridgway’s suspected victims, disappeared at the same day as Michelle Ellis called. "Michelle" was the possible name of a woman who was last seen in 1980. She may be a victim of the Green River killings. Although Michelle Ellis was from Indianapolis, Indiana, and the Unidentified Black Female disappeared from Seattle, Washington, and had possible ties to New York, it is very possible that Michelle Ellis could have travelled from different states like Washington (where the unidentified Black female and Gary Ridgway were from) (I’m aware that Ridgway was born in Salt Lake City, Utah, but most of his killings took place in Washington). I will give the links to the websites I paraphrased from (I put this paragraph mostly in my own words, I wasn’t copyrighting) to show the comparison and similarities between Michelle Ellis and the unidentified Black female, there are some vague/slightly noticeable similarities. If there is a person who is interested in true crime or would like to help see if these two cases are related, that would be helpful. Maybe someone will solve these two cold cases References and the Photos are in these links: https://charleyproject.org/case/michelle-ellis https://unidentified-awareness.fandom.com/wiki/Michelle Gatorbearratica (talk) 23:07, 2 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

His father, was a bus.

[edit]

Can someone please edit this to whatever it's supposed to be? 2607:FEA8:A940:2470:C1F:46D6:400E:629E (talk) 01:18, 15 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

 Fixed General Ization Talk 01:56, 15 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Semi-protected edit request on 22 October 2023

[edit]

This is a very minor edit. There is a typo about Tammy Liles' identification year. While the wiki says 1998, the cited source states it was actually 1988. The correct line this should be changed to is "Liles remained unidentified until 1988 and Girdner until October 2009." SimsGuy67 (talk) 03:19, 22 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

 Done — Paper9oll (🔔 • 📝) 09:32, 22 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Semi-protected edit request on 13 November 2023

[edit]

Popular Culture>Movies>His lack of intelligence is mentioned in the 2023 film “Killers”. 2603:6081:55F0:630:2528:448:40D6:DB6 (talk) 00:00, 14 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. voorts (talk/contributions) 03:17, 14 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

identification of jane doe B-17

[edit]

so i noticed no one bothered to add the identity of jane doe b-17 which is lori anne razpotnik who was identified by parabon nanolabs today https://unidentified-awareness.fandom.com/wiki/Lori_Anne_Razpotnik 72.2.243.103 (talk) 00:03, 20 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

It's not that people don't "bother" to do it, but anyway, I have done it now, using a reliable source to support the information instead of a wiki. Larry Hockett (Talk) 00:55, 20 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
If you have time, can you update paragraph two under "Murders" that states: "Because most of the bodies were not discovered until only the skeletons remained, two victims are still unidentified."? According to The Seattle Times' article the number of unidentified victims is now only one. Thanks, Larry! Trey Cordova (talk) 12:27, 20 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Semi-protected edit request on 10 September 2024

[edit]

Incarceration status changed. Rdigway was moved from Walla Walla, WA to King County (Seattle), WA on September 9, 2024. He was booked in at 10:42am.

Source: https://komonews.com/news/local/green-river-killer-gary-ridgway-booked-king-county-jail-murder-life-sentences-dna-confessions-death-penalty-washington-state 2601:602:8980:8E40:D3F6:DF7D:24A0:86E0 (talk) 22:53, 10 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

 Not done: It was temporary, he's already back at Walla Walla.[1] Schazjmd (talk) 14:59, 14 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Gary_Ridgway&oldid=1255649293"