Talk:Rumi
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A consensus has been reached on this talk page that Rumi has a Persian heritage. The consensus is based entirely on reliable sources that establish his birthplace and native language within a Persian cultural-historical context. Before reopening a debate on Rumi's ethnicity, please read WP:V, WP:Weight, and WP:RS, as well as Talk:Rumi/Rumi's heritage. See also modern, authoritative biographies of Rumi, such as that of Professor Franklin Lewis, and note the relative ubiquity of such descriptions as "Persian poet Rumi" and "Persian mystic Rumi" in Google Books and Google Scholar sources. |
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Balkh City
[edit]Balkh City was much larger in 13th century. Mevlana was born in Balkhi, currently located in Afghanistan.
His surname was Balkhi, which in Persian means "from Balkh", how come we still keep playing with his origin?
Some people running on Wikipedia mis-information agenda. 84.251.64.121 (talk) 08:45, 6 December 2022 (UTC)
- Reliable sources make clear that he was born in Vakhsh, not Balkh (where his family was from) - so this should just be removed the infobox and the like. Iskandar323 (talk) 11:12, 6 December 2022 (UTC)
- Honestly do not care where Rumi was born, but...
- "DJALAL AL-DIN RUMI B. BAHA' AL-DIN SULTAN AL-'ULAMA'WALAD B. HUSAYN B. AHMAD KHATIBI, known by the sobriquet Mawlana (Mevlana), Persian poet and founder of the Mawlawiyya order of dervishes, which was named after him, was born on Rabi'I 604/30 September 1207 in Balkh, and died on 5 Djumada II 672/1273 in Konya." --The Encyclopaedia of Islam, Vol. II:C-G, Brill, 1991, page 393, H. Ritter.
- "Rumi's birth in Balkh..." -- The Masnavi, Book Five, Jalal al-Din Rumi, page xxvii, transl. Jawid Mojaddedi, Oxford University Press.
- "Afghanistan vigorously claims Rumi on ground of "jus soli" because he was born in Balkh..."-- Rapture and Revolution: Essays on Turkish Literature, Talat S. Halman. Syracuse University Press, page 263.
- "Rumi, was born in Balkh on the 6th of Rabi' alawwal 604 A.H...." --Islamic Art and Spirituality, Seyyed Hossein Nasr, page 115, State University of New York Press
- "Mawlana Jalal al-Din Rumi was one of the greatest poets and mystics of the Islamic world. He was born in Balkh (Korasan) in AD 1207.." --Poetry and Mysticism in Islam: The Heritage of Rumi, ed. Amin Banani, Richard Hovannisian, Georges Sabagh, page 3, Cambridge University Press.
- "Perhaps the greatest Sufi poet of all, Jalal al-Din Molavi Rumi, was born near Balkh.. --Iran: What Everyone Needs to Know, Michael Axworthy, page 35, Oxford University Press.
- These are just a few I found searching for only university published sources. --Kansas Bear (talk) 18:15, 6 December 2022 (UTC)
- In-depth works on Rumi, such as those by Franklin Lewis, and including the books and articles already cited in the note on the page, explain the residence of Rumi's father in Vakhsh at the time of Rumi's birth in some depth, led by the early scholarship of Fritz Meier. We also have Annemarie Schimmel attesting this scholarship. That's already three eminent subject-matter experts. The above works by contrast appear to be mainly more generalist sources, which one might forgive for being looser on the finer biographical detail. Hellmut Ritter is also an expert, but his 1991 EoI entry is dated. Jawid Mojaddedi is an Afghan scholar who might be forgiven for leaning into the POV identified by Talât Sait Halman:
"Afghanistan vigorously claims..."
. The works by Seyyed Hossein Nasr and Richard G. Hovannisian are again generalist, while Michael Axworthy says "near Balkh", not "in Balkh", which in a very broad sense Vakhsh could be considered to be. Iskandar323 (talk) 19:43, 6 December 2022 (UTC)- A Wikipedia article should be objective and honest. It should be mentioned that there is debate over his birthplace, with Balkh also being a probable origin. Why do you think he is called Rumi e Balkhi? 2607:FEA8:A4E0:D000:F4B9:3DF1:1A8D:9D4B (talk) 13:31, 12 June 2023 (UTC)
- In-depth works on Rumi, such as those by Franklin Lewis, and including the books and articles already cited in the note on the page, explain the residence of Rumi's father in Vakhsh at the time of Rumi's birth in some depth, led by the early scholarship of Fritz Meier. We also have Annemarie Schimmel attesting this scholarship. That's already three eminent subject-matter experts. The above works by contrast appear to be mainly more generalist sources, which one might forgive for being looser on the finer biographical detail. Hellmut Ritter is also an expert, but his 1991 EoI entry is dated. Jawid Mojaddedi is an Afghan scholar who might be forgiven for leaning into the POV identified by Talât Sait Halman:
- These are just a few I found searching for only university published sources. --Kansas Bear (talk) 18:15, 6 December 2022 (UTC)
- Very True, He is from Afghanistan. No doubt. 2603:8000:E600:C03E:4117:4563:E620:BA15 (talk) 08:14, 10 April 2023 (UTC)
- Currently located in afghanistan, since neither the country or concept of afghanistan existed back. He was a native persian speaker from current Afghanistan is more correct. 83.254.160.80 (talk) 17:42, 23 July 2023 (UTC)
The city of Vaksh or any city in that region (or Tajikistan) didn’t exist before the 17th century- Afghanistan was far more developed along with Iran, Tajikistan being a more rural and agricultural land mass- hence the vast evidence of art, cultural, scientific and learned centers in the Herat and Balkh regions- it would have been improbable that he was born and raised in Tajikistan. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:6C50:1A40:8932:442D:A096:162F:56DB (talk) 03:58, 27 September 2023 (UTC)
Ethnicity Removed
[edit]Why has Kansas Bear removed the Persian ethnicity of Rumi from being Persian? He cites, MOS:Ethnicity, but it claims it shouldn't be apart of the lead unless relevant to the subject's notability. Consensus has been reached on the talk page about this tiring topic already. Please reintroduce Persian.
The lead in for Socrates is that he is a Greek Philosopher, Rumi is no different here. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2607:FEA8:55DF:FC8A:8C6D:42C2:1616:4D24 (talk) 01:39, 5 May 2023 (UTC)
- I'd like to mention instead of addressing or explaining his reasoning he simply deleted my comments as an IP user from his talk page. MOS:Ethnicity has not been proved to apply here. unsigned comment added by 2607:FEA8:55DF:FC8A:8C6D:42C2:1616:4D24 (talk) 02:59, 5 May 2023 (UTC)
- Comments about this editor's edits are duly noted. Onpoint12 (talk) 23:58, 27 August 2024 (UTC)
- Can someone do that please? 103.73.57.133 (talk) 06:27, 8 September 2023 (UTC)
- MOS:Ethnicity does not apply here since Rumi's Persian identity is central to his notability. Merely highlighting his origins in 'Greater Iran' lacks clarity for an opening paragraph and he is described as Persian in any reputable academic source (many of which are already cited on this page). Onpoint12 (talk) 10:02, 4 August 2024 (UTC)
- Sorry, but his Persian poetry is, not his Persian ethnicity, hence MOS:ETHNICITY applies. HistoryofIran (talk) 22:29, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
- His ethnocultural identity is 'Persian' and it is indelibly associated with him and his contribution to Persian literature - as recognised by multiple credible sources used on this page. It is also an important descriptor for the sake of a) clarity (versus saying he is from Khwarezm in Greater Iran, which is opaque and arguably contradictory and b) consistency with other pages on Wikipedia where many poets have ethnocultural descriptors i.e. Greek, Roman preceding the word 'poet'. Any attempt to deny this descriptor works against educating the reader. Onpoint12 (talk) 23:56, 27 August 2024 (UTC)
- Sorry, but his Persian poetry is, not his Persian ethnicity, hence MOS:ETHNICITY applies. HistoryofIran (talk) 22:29, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
- MOS:Ethnicity does not apply here since Rumi's Persian identity is central to his notability. Merely highlighting his origins in 'Greater Iran' lacks clarity for an opening paragraph and he is described as Persian in any reputable academic source (many of which are already cited on this page). Onpoint12 (talk) 10:02, 4 August 2024 (UTC)
- "consistency with other pages on Wikipedia where many poets have ethnocultural descriptors i.e. Greek, Roman preceding the word 'poet'."
- WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS is not an argument.
- Rumi isn't known for being a "Persian", he is known for his poetry. Which has been already stated, which you have clearly ignored. --Kansas Bear (talk) 00:04, 28 August 2024 (UTC)
- Rumi is knwon for being a 'Persian poet' in the same way other poets in other languages are 'French poets' or 'English poets'. It refers to ethnocultural identity and contribution. Importantly, academic sources refer to him as the same. The fact that other pages manage to clarify such facts illustrates why they score better for clarity, an area where this page underperforms alarmingly. Onpoint12 (talk) 00:10, 28 August 2024 (UTC)
- WP:REHASH. --Kansas Bear (talk) 00:15, 28 August 2024 (UTC)
- Previous editors' comments suggest your rationales for these ongoing changes fail to resonate. I am not adding 'Persian' as an ethnic descriptor; please re read my rationale, check the sources used on this page, and understand that MOS:ETHNICITY does not apply here. As others have already highlighted in the past. Onpoint12 (talk) 00:20, 28 August 2024 (UTC)
- I await a response on why adding 'Persian' as a descriptor to 'poet' is an ethnic reference that has no place in the article. As mentioned many times, it reflects his 'ethnocultural' identity and contribution, an important aspect of the subject that helps educate the reader, and which is recognised by the sources used on this page (which also describe him as a 'Persian poet). Onpoint12 (talk) 00:59, 28 August 2024 (UTC)
- Previous editors' comments suggest your rationales for these ongoing changes fail to resonate. I am not adding 'Persian' as an ethnic descriptor; please re read my rationale, check the sources used on this page, and understand that MOS:ETHNICITY does not apply here. As others have already highlighted in the past. Onpoint12 (talk) 00:20, 28 August 2024 (UTC)
- WP:REHASH. --Kansas Bear (talk) 00:15, 28 August 2024 (UTC)
- He is well known as being a 'Persian poet', which recognises his ethnocultural identity and contribution. I again highlight the sources used on this page. A simple Google search will also furnish you with the same evidence. Simply telling me he is known for his poetry does not preclude notability based on his ethnocultural identity, the evidence for which is overwhelming Onpoint12 (talk) 01:05, 28 August 2024 (UTC)
- Could you please some WP:RS that talks about the importance of this "ethnocultural identity"? There are other ways to highlight a poet without going against MOS:ETHNICITY, eg [1] HistoryofIran (talk) 01:48, 28 August 2024 (UTC)
Semi-protected edit request on 18 November 2023
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Eaditor 2.0 (talk) 22:16, 18 November 2023 (UTC)
Maulana jalaluddin was NOT from Iran. He have also never been there. Maulana is from Balkh, a province in AFGHANISTAN.
- Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. We don't say he's from Iran. Greater Iran is not the same thing. We already say "Rumi was born to Persian parents,[33][10][11][34] in Balkh[35], modern-day Afghanistan or Wakhsh,[3] a village on the East bank of the Wakhsh River known as Sangtuda in present-day Tajikistan.[3]" in the #Life section as well. Not sure what you're complaining about Cannolis (talk) 22:30, 18 November 2023 (UTC)
174.76.251.66 (talk) 16:46, 20 February 2024 (UTC)
- Even if this is the case, Afghanistan was a part of Greater Iran at that time, which is still the case culturally and linguistically.Rumlu (talk) 06:01, 24 February 2024 (UTC)
Afghanistan didn’t exist as a country before 1700’s.
Semi-protected edit request on 24 February 2024
[edit]This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
I would like to ask to "change Rumi to Molavi", as his original name is Molavi. He is born in Balkh (currently part of Afghanistan - seperated in 1857 from Iran by Treaty of Paris). His peoms are in Persian and the name of Rumi is not representative of neither his origin nor his name. The name Rumi is a huge misrepresenting for an international poem like Molavi. Farzaneh gholami (talk) 16:28, 24 February 2024 (UTC)
- Not done: Rumi is his WP:COMMONNAME; regardless of any alleged 'misrepresentation'. The name you characterize as 'not representative' also reflects the geography (see Rûm) he arguably had the most direct impact on. Uness232 (talk) 17:59, 24 February 2024 (UTC)
An interesting fact about Meulana
[edit]An interesting and perhaps less widely known fact about Rumi is his deep and transformative friendship with Shams of Tabriz. This meeting is often credited with changing Rumi's life and turning him towards the path of Sufi mysticism. Before meeting Shams, Rumi was a respected but relatively conventional Islamic scholar. The intensity of their relationship sparked an outpouring of poetic longing and spiritual depth in Rumi's work, which previously had not been as evident. Their friendship is a central theme in many of Rumi's poems, illustrating the transformative power of human connection and love. This relationship also led to the creation of many of Rumi's most beloved poems, collected in the "Divan-e Shams-e Tabrizi" (The Collected Poems of Shams of Tabriz). The profound impact of Shams on Rumi's life and work underscores the importance of companionship, love, and the mentor-mentee relationship in the journey of spiritual and personal growth, a theme that resonates across cultures and eras. FatemeHashemi1992 (talk) 16:31, 8 March 2024 (UTC)
- The Shams friendship is mentioned quite a bit in the article. Pyrrho the Skipper (talk) 18:37, 13 March 2024 (UTC)
Runi quote about source of lights
[edit]OK to add Rumi's statement, "Thus, even though two lamp-dishes be not joined, Yet their light is united in a single ray" from https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Masnavi_I_Ma%27navi/Book_III#STORY_XVII._The_Vakil_of_the_Prince_of_Bokhara.
This passage could go in the Teachings section as representing the concept of a commonality to divine teachings. I also encounter this passage translated to English as "The lamps are different, but the Light is the same; it comes from Beyond." I am not certain of the source of this translation, it might be Coleman Barks. Badgettrg (talk) 03:59, 26 July 2024 (UTC)
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