Talk:Gunther von Hagens

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Dying from Parkinson's disease

It is not clear in the cited article that "dying from Parkinson's" was a specific quote of Mr Von Hagens. In view of the fact that Parkinson's is not typically stated as a cause of death/dying in this way, I would be reluctant to use this terminology. If someone can point to a direct quote of Mr Von Hagens I would be happy to uphold this, otherwise I think it should be changed.

Controversy

I think the much controversy that his doings stirred up show the still extreme entanglement in religious views all over the world, even though we live in the 21st century and roughly everything has been unravled by science in a consistent fashion. No doubt there will always be more to unravel but the point is that society take way longer to adapt to technology and science. People view themselves as miracles, godlike or actually extraordinary but at the core we are all very much the same. I admire people like Gunther because no matter what, his programs will serve students to educate themselves and layman to reconsider their views and gradually adapt to an everchanging technological world. The view that one`s body still belongs to the dead is a pure spiritual one. In the end it is the very same extraordinary specimens that find their way into textbooks and give evermore new insights into pathology. Slicky 11:08, 24 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Image

I have added a photo (screenshot) of Dr. Von Hagens, if you deem the photo is inappropriate (showing the plastinated corpse), please feel free to remove it and I will crop out the photo to show only Dr. Von Hagens.

Plastination

Prof Gunther Von Hagens is very clever to have devised the Plastination process as a way of preserving dead human bodies.

Whatever people may say as a way of criticism, the scientific fact is that the procedure is remarkable and is there for anyone who chooses to decide to donate their own body when they die rather than be traditionally buried or cremated of which some people 'shiver' at the thought.

Similarly his exhibitions are both enlightening and educational in that he shows the difference between perfect body organs and diseased ones and it gives people food for thought as to what may be going on inside their own bodies as a result of certain bad habits they may have which they can decide to change before it's too late.

No one is forced to visit Prof Von Hagen's exhibitions; everyone has a free choice as to whether to go or not and therefore it is wrong when people say that what he is showing to the public should not be allowed because in his case it is very educational and the Professor himself is an intelligent man who has studied long and hard for the type of work he is doing.

Yes, we may feel squeamish and be unable to look at certain things but that does not mean that those things should not be shown to the genuinely interested person who can perhaps learn more as to how our bodies work as with the Public Dissection/P.M he carried out in London's Brick Lane last November.

Sure he's unusual to be doing what he's doing but in his case I am convinced he is harmless and has integrity.

Kind Regards,

Louise Brown

Needs ref

I couldn't verify

In Germany, von Hagens refused to produce documents evidencing the consent of the deceased with such public exhibition.

so I removed it for now. AxelBoldt 22:09, 6 Oct 2003 (UTC)

Embalming with resins

I have definite written proof in my possession to show that von Hagens has NOT invented the plastination process. It's an article by Oreste Nuzzi published on the scientic magazine Sapere by Urlico Hoepli Editions on the 29th of February 1952(when von Hagens would have been a mere 7 years old). The article describes the process as using sodium silicates and potassium among other chemicals and specifically mentions the use of resins. Please someone take notice as I think this would also invalidate his patents. brutaldeluxe 02:28 08/01/09 (gmt)Brutaldeluxe (talk) 02:30, 8 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Hi BrutalDeluxe - the practice of embalming bodies with resins dates back to Ancient Egypt ^[1]. The specific case in your article is the attempted embalming of Pope Pius XII by Nuzzi and Riccardo Galeazzi-Lisi as described in the book "Modern Mummies" by Christine Quigley - published online here: ^[2]. Quigley reports that the embalming was a 'complete failure' and the body rapidly decomposed. The detailed wiki article plastination indicates that there is a lot more to the process than soaking a corpse with volatile chemicals. Pichiciago (talk) 08:59, 8 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

According to this account ^[3] Nuzzi publicly retracted his earlier statements that he had used 'an entirely new process' "The dismay of Vatican dignitaries and other people who had seen the dead pontiff's body deteriorate by the hour was reflected in the newspapers. The archiater and his assistant, Dr. Nuzzi, felt compelled to hold a press conference to discuss their embalming method. Pope Pius XII's remains had been preserved in the manner the body of Jesus was treated after His crucifixion, Dr. Galeazzi Lisi explained with his habitual blandness; the dead pontiff was sprinkled with aromatic substances and wrapped into a winding sheet - 'there were no injections, no surgery, no evisceration'. Early Christians and such historic figures such as Charlemagne had been embalmed in the same fashion, a method that might be described as 'aromatic osmosis', the archiater said eruditely. Dr. Nuzzi, who claimed to have developed the technique, declared it was a rediscovery of what had been practiced many centuries ago." Thanks for raising this interesting case - perhaps it deserves to be referenced in the Mummification article. Pichiciago (talk) 09:18, 8 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for your attention Pichiciago but as the article predates the death of Pope Pius XII there is no mention of that case.The article specifically concerns the preservation of soft tissues and whole organs and especially to preserve the architectural appearance thereof.Among the pictures of items prepared by Nuzzi are: a muscle preserved in silicate(possibly a gluteus),the kidney of a fetus,the tubular section of a kidney,cutaneous tissue and the spiroidal elastic fibres of aponeurosis(preserved with aniline).Unrelated to Nuzzi's work there is also a picture of a hand set on a background made of parts of liver and brain matter,mummified by Efisio Marini,a contemporary of Napoleon III. As the article concerns the preservation of individual organs and of their architectural appearance using resins of synthetic origin,this seems to me to be rather similar to the plastination process,where separate parts of the body are treated as such. In the case of Pope Pius XII it is likely that the respect required towards the body of a pontiff restricted the kind of treatment that could be administered to the cadaver. I would like to show,reference or publish the article online. Is there a way for me to do so,and without infringing copyright laws?Brutaldeluxe (talk) 20:39, 8 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

It would be OK to cite the article & quote from it, but if it isn't published anywhere online you can't link to it - which is a pity because it sounds interesting. (Linking to copyrighted material in wikipedia is OK) see Copyright. You could add the reference to the "Mummification" and "Embalming" wiki articles, and the "Plastination" page also has an 'other types of plastination' section, which describes older attempts at tissue preservation with chemicals. It doesn't really belong on this page here, because it's not 'about' Gunther von Hagens, and there's no page about Nuzzi (but maybe you could start one!).

I doubt this process threatens the patents for plastination - because it doesn't include the vacuum impregnation and chemical exchange mechanisms that characterise that process, however it is an interesting part of the history of anatomical preservation and deserves to be recorded somewhere. On the copyright issue I'm no expert, but since the article is more than 60 years old I doubt anyone is going to cry foul if you publish it somewhere. Pichiciago (talk) 12:40, 9 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

References

Executed Chinese prisoners?

An article in Salon.com [1] mentions that bullet holes were discovered in the heads of two Chinese corpses displayed by von Hagens leading to accusations that he has processed the bodies of executed Chinese prisoners. Anybody want to add it? --AStanhope 13:31, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Here's corroboration... [2] --AStanhope 13:33, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I added it. However, neither the Spiegel nor BBC claimed that bullet holes had actually been found in Body World exhibits. Salon apparently misinterpreted the BBC article. AxelBoldt 23:07, 5 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Harassment

"Harassment" is a rather POV word (in that it implies the legal attentions are unwarranted, which isn't for us to say). Did GvH use that term (in some saying we can cite)? If so, I'd change that sentence to read:

Citing what he described as "harassment" [cite] of the Bodyworld exhibit, in the Summer of 2004 von Hagens announced that the exhibition would permanently leave Germany. [cite]

If he didn't specifically cite the cause (in a nicely quotable way), perhaps the sentence should read something like:

After several legal challenges to the Bodyworlds exhibit in Germany, in the Summer of 2004 von Hagens announced it would be leaving the country permanenty. [cite]

-- Finlay McWalter | Talk 23:16, 5 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Does Prof. Von Hagens intend to be plastinated?

Any word on what he plans to do with his body when he passes on? --71.222.59.133 06:03, 29 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

He plans to section his body and plastinate the sections, using recently developed sectioning techniques, and donate it to several universities as anatomy specimens. In his own words: "That way I will be able to teach at several locations at the same time, something that I cannot do while alive". Dr.K. (talk) 04:13, 15 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Süddeutsche Zeitung

Is this really a legal accusation. Is there a law that this would be against? Perhaps the title of the section needs to be changed (there is nowhere else for this information to go at present). Thehalfone 10:57, 31 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Surname and titles

Just to let you know that his surname is von Hagens, not Hagens or Von Hagens. It should only read Von Hagens if it's at the beginning of a sentence. I think correct form is simply to refer to him as "von Hagens" and not "Dr von Hagens" or "Prof von Hagens" (debate over his titles aside).

Secondly, why does it say that von Hagens kept his name even it was that of his first wife? I would have assumed that his first wife adopted his name, not vice versa? 122.106.209.26 (talk) 07:22, 6 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

A: His given name was Liebchen (meaning "Dearest" or "Beloved") which did not appeal to his first wife, so he took her name (von Hagens). —Preceding unsigned comment added by Pichiciago (talk • contribs) 16:10, 6 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Hamburg what?

Can you explain this for me: "Hamburg prosecutors investigated charges of disturbing the dead, based on his photographing plastinated corpses late at night all over Hamburg."

As far as I'm aware, there are not "plastinated corpses late at night all over Hamburg" which would be disturbed if photographed past their bedtime. I'm confused as to what that blip was intending to say to begin with. Informative article however I would recommend being aware of the potential negative slant in your language. Thank you Vdess (talk) 00:01, 9 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Controversy paragraph order

Hello, I think the paragraphs in the Controversy section should be moved so that they are in chronological order, instead of the current 2004...2002...2005 arrangement. Thank you, Loves Macs (talk) 16:35, 17 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Birthplace: Kalisch vs Kalisz

Von Hagens' birthplace should probably be given as Skalmierzyce, Kalisz, Poland rather than Skalmierzyce, Kalisch, Poland. Kalisch is the german form of the name. Though von Hagens' was born just before the end of the war, I'm not sure if using the occupant name of the voivodship is appropriate (I'm Polish, and it kind of offended me). If the consensus is different though, then Skalmierzyce should be given in the german form of Skalmierschütz. 77.114.20.229 (talk) 17:04, 28 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

On Body Worlds leaving Germany

I have not found substantiation of this statement

"After several legal challenges to the Body Worlds exhibit in Germany, in the Summer of 2004 von Hagens announced it would be leaving the country."

Rather - I found a statement from 2004 ^[1] indicating that following the resolution of the legal challenges Gunther von Hagens was inspired to bring Body Worlds to Germany again:

Gunther von Hagens: “Ich bin erleichtert, dass ich nicht verurteilt worden bin. So kann ich mich jetzt wieder voll und ganz der Plastinationsforschung und dem Plastinarium in Guben widmen. Der Ausgang des Prozesses bestärkt mich in dem Entschluss, die Ausstellung KÖRPERWELTEN wieder in Deutschland zu zeigen.”

In English

“I am relieved that I was not convicted. Now I can dedicate myself again completely to Plastination and to the Plastinarium in Guben. The end of the legal process encourages me in the resolution to show the exhibition BODY WORLDS in Germany again." Tigriscuniculus (talk) 08:54, 4 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

References

^ http://www.koerperwelten.newmedia-net.de/de/presse/pressemeldungen_statements/pressemeldungen_statements_2006.html?edit

Where does this guy get all these money....

to employ 350 people in 4 countries and keep a constant supply of bodies? Shouldn't wikipedia investigate his financial dealings as reported in the press? Is he rich or something? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.71.209.123 (talk) 20:38, 27 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The bodies are donations, he doesn't buy them 122.106.208.156 (talk) 08:07, 18 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

On the new show Crucifixion, Channel 4, UK it mentioned he's a multi millionare through his method. But yes they're donations. The article may need updating to a lot of the things discussed on the show 81.100.31.182 (talk) 14:21, 9 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Pizza?

I found the mentioning of his favourite food being pizza to seem rather random or out of place. Especially seeing as there was a typo in it (which i fixed), I think it should either be verified or removed. = —Preceding unsigned comment added by 116.90.73.160 (talk) 03:07, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Laboratory location

"Concealed lab behind a movable staircase"? Uh-huh, right. Think anyone can verify that with credible sources? —Preceding unsigned comment added by ZhouChee (talk • contribs) 07:12, 27 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Copy from here: Hey (User:Dr.K.),

a long time ago, you added some details to this article, including some weird stuff about a hidden laboratory and a section that is surely out of date by today, on what he was "currently" working on seven years ago. The cited website is dead. Do you have an idea on how to salvage this? In the current version, this section has become much shorter and my instinct suggests to just delete it... Greetings, --Xario (talk) 13:16, 17 August 2015 (UTC)}}[reply]

Something he was working on eight years ago can still be included in the article by changing the tense. As far as the link it can be partially retrieved via the Internet archive and I fixed it at the article. The video doesn't work but the website and the date have been archived. Also the fact he kept a secret lab behind a mobile staircase is included in the video. This was also a TV appearance and can be included in the TV appearance section. In any case, this discussion should take place at the article talk if there is some reason to be discussed with the wider community. Δρ.Κ. λόγος 14:52, 17 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Thx! The talk page has a question concerning the lab since 2010 with no reaction, so I thought, I'd ask you directly. I am now going to copy our dialogue there, because while the internet archive is a good idea, it doesn't really help that much, does it? I find this lab thing very odd and haven't found anything else about it... --Xario (talk)

End of copy. --Xario (talk) 20:53, 17 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The citation is very specific. It is the Daily Planet episode from 25 May 2007. In it while the narrator talks about the secret lab, von Hagens moves an iron staircase and reveals the door of the lab. It is an old episode but perhaps it can be retrieved by someone. Btw, I hadn't seen the comment from 2010. Δρ.Κ. ^{λόγοςπράξις} 22:07, 17 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

What do you know. Here is the video on youtube. Staircase is at 5:17. Δρ.Κ. ^{λόγοςπράξις} 22:24, 17 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Awesome. I added it to the article as a second ref with the time mark. Guess it shows how "unique" GvH is... Thousand thanx! --Xario (talk) 08:54, 18 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Glad to be of help Xario. I agree. von Hagens is a very interesting man. Best regards. Δρ.Κ. ^{λόγοςπράξις} 18:13, 18 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Request for Comments

There is an RfC on the question of using "Religion: None" vs. "Religion: None (atheist)" in the infobox on this and other similar pages.

The RfC is at Template talk:Infobox person#RfC: Religion infobox entries for individuals that have no religion.

Please help us determine consensus on this issue. --Guy Macon (talk) 21:04, 25 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

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Assessment comment

The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Gunther von Hagens/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.

Bit vague about whether he is a qualified doctor. From the wording here I guess not (?).

Last edited at 15:37, 20 October 2008 (UTC). Substituted at 16:51, 29 April 2016 (UTC)

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Whitewashing

It seems von Hagens' PR team has a hand in this article (probably not uncommon for multimillionaires on Wikipedia). The lede is especially curious to me "The sourcing of biological specimens for his exhibits has been controversial, but he insists that informed consent was given before death of donors, and extensive documentation of this has been made available.", with the claim about extensive documentation, while being true, seeking to play down the fact he was unable to actually name his sources for many of the corpses and a DER SPIEGEL investigation found him to be using executed Chinese prisoners. --RRorg (talk) 16:43, 31 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Compare Frederik Ruysch

I kept running into this fellow while I was trying to recall the name of Frederik Ruysch, whose story is quite similar but separated by a few hundred years. It would have saved me a lot of trouble if he had been mentioned in a 'see-also' section. Does this seem justifiable given how similar their work is? --Pish1le (talk) 05:54, 2 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

[1] ttp://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v413/n6858/full/413837a0.html

[2] ttp://books.google.de/books?id=ZOqU-9BTZO4C&pg=PA204&lpg=PA204&dq=Oreste+Nuzzi&source=bl&ots=akcQwH_pMc&sig=kprZ1PTwgNe-HWiEaijAZoawwyA&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=2&ct=result#PPA173,M1

[3] ttp://www.angelqueen.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=8225&view=previous&sid=833257950f76cccf68a77e3f4b8e5100

[4] ttp://www.koerperwelten.newmedia-net.de/de/presse/pressemeldungen_statements/pressemeldungen_statements_2006.html?edit

[1]

[2]

[3]

[1]