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Requested move 25 March 2024

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved per snowball clause . (closed by non-admin page mover) – Hilst [talk] 16:04, 30 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia:Policies and guidelines → Wikipedia:Guidelines and policies – The reason for this controversial move request is so that the topics are listed in alphabetical order, per WP:AND, and because I think the words 'guidelines' and 'policies' sound clearer and make more sense in that order. PK2 (talk) 09:27, 25 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose per the above !vote. –Gluonz talk contribs 13:55, 25 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose per above. I'm no fan of the status quo but in this case we're not talking about a substantive change. And the proposal will affect years of practice by thousands of editors and links to subsections. -
Butwhatdoiknow (talk) 16:45, 25 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose - as said above, policies carry more weight than guidelines, hence they come first. estar8806 (talk) ★ 20:38, 26 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Discussion at Wikipedia talk:Categories for discussion#History of instruction changes of Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Speedy

You are invited to join a discussion about history of CFDS at Wikipedia talk:Categories for discussion#History of instruction changes of Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Speedy. —⁠andrybak (talk) 12:41, 25 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Copyedit

@Ca, I'm not sure about all the changes you're making. Off hand, here are a few that stood out to me:

  • "a summary of the most pertinent principles": We specified that that WP:5P is a "popular" summary, to be clearer that it's not an "official" or "complete" one. 5P is IMO an excellent summary, but it's also just a five-point re-write of WP:Trifecta to sound more formal and avoid some slang. There's nothing magical about it.
  • "Wikipedia's policy and guideline pages describe its principles and agreed-upon best practices": We specified "pages" here because there are multiple meanings of policy. This paragraph is specifically talking about the written pages, rather than standard practices. (Consider, e.g., "our country's foreign policy": you don't expect that to be a single document with the word "Policy" in a fancy box at the top.) The written pages do this; the actual policies ("a definite course or method of action selected from among alternatives and in light of given conditions") is what editors do at RecentChanges or AFD, not what we write on the page.
  • "Additionally, the shortcut is not the policy; the plain-English definition of the page's title or shortcut may be importantly different from the linked page.": The problem of people misinterpreting the WP:UPPERCASE shortcuts is perennial and significant. For example, there are hundreds of shortcuts that start with WP:NOT but don't point to WP:NOT. On occasion, we'll even see people arguing that WP:THIS requires us to do this, and WP:NOTTHIS requires us to never do this ...and they're pointing at the same section of the same page, only the editors didn't know this, because they were just guessing that the shortcut matched the rule, so they never bothered to actually read the rules.

This is not an exhaustive list, but I also want to say that I don't object to every change you've made. What would you like to do to resolve some of my concerns? WhatamIdoing (talk) 19:19, 28 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the kind and lengthy feedback. Here is a list of changes I will make later, based on your suggestions:
  • Reintroduce popular as descriptor
  • Reword the page–attitude distinction to be clearer
  • Re-add "shortcut is not the policy" with clearer wording
Ca talk to me! 23:25, 28 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Venue

I've seen a couple of claims, during the last year or two, that proposals for WP:PGCHANGES should happen at the village pump, instead of on the talk page for the affected policy/guideline/similar page. It is generally poor practice to do this deliberately, as one sometimes has Group A making a decision about Page B, and then totally surprising Group B when Group A implements the changes. There are, however, times when it makes sense (e.g., when multiple guidelines could be affected, you don't necessarily want to pick one talk page over the others) and other times when it's just what happens (e.g., a discussion takes an unexpected turn). I wonder whether we should make this more explicit. Something like "Changes to a single guideline or policy should normally be discussed on the talk page for that guideline or policy"? WhatamIdoing (talk) 21:20, 25 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I really don’t think the venue of a policy discussion matters - what DOES matter is that as many editors as possible know that the discussion is taking place, and where to go to participate in it. So, leave lots of neutral notifications (everywhere you can think of) clearly linking to the discussion. Blueboar (talk) 22:07, 25 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
We say "Amendments to a proposal can be discussed on its talk page......start a request for comment (RfC) about your policy or guideline proposal in a new section on the proposal's talk page. Include the {{rfc}}..." Should we be more blunt? Moxy🍁 22:25, 25 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yet, WP:Village Pump (policy) says that it should be “used to discuss already proposed policies and guidelines and to discuss changes to existing policies and guidelines.”
So… I can see why people are confused. Especially if you think there is only one “correct” to do things. I don’t. I don’t think the location of an RFC matters as long as max people are notified a) that it is taking place, and b) where it is taking place.
If at VPP, notify the P/G page. If at the P/G page, notify VPP. Simple. Blueboar (talk) 00:28, 26 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
People should defer to existing policies and guidelines over administration pages. How long has this been there at the village pump? Village pump should be there to direct people to the right page not be the page itself in my view as outline in our policy page "The RfC should typically be announced at the policy and/or proposals village pumps, and you should notify other potentially interested groups". Should be fixed as per WP:POLCON. Moxy🍁 00:42, 30 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It's not quite as simple as that. Usually, you need to defer to the most specific information. For example, WP:V says that "Reputable newspapers" are reliable sources, but MEDRS says that they're not reliable for biomedical information. You defer to MEDRS because it's more specific, not because guidelines inherently outrank policies. WhatamIdoing (talk) 01:48, 1 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Please see Wikipedia:Village pump (policy)#The header for this page about adjusting the wording of the sentence at the top of WP:VPP. WhatamIdoing (talk) 03:58, 25 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]


Venue

  • For small-to-medium discussions affecting a single page: Prefer the talk page for that policy, guideline, or other page.
  • For small-to-medium discussions affecting multiple pages: Start the discussion at the talk page for one of the affected pages or at the Wikipedia:Village pump (policy). Notify the other pages about the central location.
  • For long discussions: Create a separate page (e.g., Wikipedia:Requests for comment/YOUR SUMMARY HERE) or as a subpage of the policy or guideline (e.g., Wikipedia:Verifiability/First sentence).

Maybe a note like one of these? Or maybe this is overkill?

Recommended venues – Do your best to notify other relevant pages
Expected discussion Talk page Village pump Separate page
Short checkY checkY
Long ☒N checkY
About one page checkY checkY
About multiple pages checkY checkY checkY

WhatamIdoing (talk) 23:12, 29 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Universal Wikipedia Policies and guidelines, or individual English Wikipedia Policies and guidelines, or both?

The name Wikipedia: Policies and guidelines suggests that the accompanying project page informs about the universal policies and guidelines valid on all Wikipedia language editions. In other words: all rules approved by the Wikimedia Foundation Board of Trustees with 'power of law' on all Wikimedia Projects, including all Wikipedia language editions. The text however does not make clear what the global policies are. The text doesn't inform either about the specific policies and guidelines valid for the English language edition Wikipedia community, established by that community within the borders of the universal WMF Policies and guidelines. The project page is made available in over 100 other languages, which also gives the impression that the page offers information about the universal policies and guidelines with validity on all Wikipedia projects - which it does not.

I've made the observation that mountains of misunderstandings do exist around the broad and rather complex topic Wikimedia Movement Policies and guidelines and the project page does not excel in delivering clearity here. The friendly suggestion therefore is to expand the text with:

  • a section containing a general introduction to the legal ecosystem in which all Wikimedia projects, including all Wikipedia projects, are operating, with some milestones from Nupedia/Wikipedia/Wikimedia governing history;
  • a summary of the most important actual valid universal Wikimedia Foundation Policies and guidelines, with 'rule of law' on all Wikipedia projects, like the WMF Bylaws, Terms of Use, Universal Code of Conduct and UCoC Enforcement guidelines (see: summary 1, summary 2 by the WMF)
  • a section explaining the actual valid policies, guidelines and best-practices on the English language Wikipedia edition.

This will have a global effect because I did notice by reading through some of the other language project pages, that other communities simply did translate this page as being the rules valid on their Wikipedia edition. Unaware of the possibility that every individual community has, to establish their own specific policies, so long as these are in conformity with the framework of global policies.

Thanks for your attention, Kevin Bouwens (talk) 12:52, 24 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Welcome to the English Wikipedia, @Kevin Bouwens. When you say "This header" in your first sentence, what header are you talking about? WhatamIdoing (talk) 20:37, 24 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you @WhatamIdoing for the swift reply, welcome and question. It's about the header "Wikipedia:Policies and guidelines", pointing out to Wikipedia in general, not only the English language edition (I've changed the sentence so others will understand). The webaddress is admittedly: "en.wikipedia.org", but that doesn't mean that the content only refers to the English language version; compare it with the lemma Wikipedia on the English language version.
My suggestion is to write on a page with this name about the general situation, and on another page "English Wikipedia: Policies and guidelines" about the Policies and guidelines that only are 'in power' on the English language edition / for the English language project community. Alternative: write both sections on this page, clearly divided. In case it turns out not to be easy for experienced Wikipedians to untangle the policies and guidelines in a section with global validity and a section with validity on the English language version, I would be happy to assist in figuring that out, when whished. Keep up! Kevin Bouwens (talk) 06:43, 25 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
If you are concerned about the page title at the top of the page, which looks like this:
Wikipedia:Policies and guidelines
then the "Wikipedia:" part indicates the namespace, and we can't actually change it on this page.
We could change the first sentence to say "The English Wikipedia's policies and guidelines are developed by the community". WhatamIdoing (talk) 16:08, 25 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The individual Wikipedia editions in different languages are separate from the Engliah Wikipedia. As it says in the introduction to this policy "This policy page specifies the community standards related to the organization, life cycle, maintenance of, and adherence to policies, guidelines, and related pages of the English Wikipedia. It does not cover other editions of Wikipedia." If you click on languages near the top right you get the nearest equivalent to the page in other languages, most have not achieved the level of bureaucratification of the English version 😃 NadVolum (talk) 15:32, 25 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Input on a search parameter in our policy template

Pls see Template talk:Wikipedia policies and guidelines#Search parameter like our MOS template?. Moxy🍁 22:43, 24 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

PAG precedence

Currently, we have a commonly accepted precedence for determining which PAG we should defer to (Manual of Style < Guideline < Policy < Core Policy), but this isn’t formalised. I think it would be helpful to do so, as our policies should reflect practice, and it will avoid wikilawyering on the issue.

As a rough draft, I would suggest changing WP:POLCON from

If policy and/or guideline pages conflict, one or more pages need to be revised to resolve the conflict so all the conflicting pages accurately reflect the community's actual practices and best advice. As a temporary measure, if a guideline appears to conflict with a policy, editors may assume the policy takes precedence.

More commonly, advice pages do not directly conflict, but provide multiple options. For example, Wikipedia:Reliable sources says newspaper articles are generally considered to be reliable sources, and Wikipedia:Identifying reliable sources (medicine) recommends against newspaper articles for certain technical purposes. Editors must use their judgement to decide which advice is most appropriate and relevant to the situation at hand.

To:

If policy and/or guideline pages conflict, one or more pages need to be revised to resolve the conflict so all the conflicting pages accurately reflect the community's actual practices and best advice.

More commonly, advice pages do not directly conflict, but provide multiple options. For example, Wikipedia:Reliable sources says newspaper articles are generally considered to be reliable sources, and Wikipedia:Identifying reliable sources (medicine) recommends against newspaper articles for certain technical purposes.

Editors must use their judgement to decide which advice is most appropriate and relevant to the situation at hand. When doing so, editors must defer to the advice with the highest level of consensus:

  • Core policies (highest)
  • Policies
  • Guidelines
  • Manual of Style (lowest)

BilledMammal (talk) 04:05, 12 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The MOS banner states that those pages are a guideline. Do they really need their own level?
Whats an example of a "core policy", and how are these different than policies?
As you can probably tell from my questions, my mental model of PAG only has three levels: policy > guideline > essay / not classified. And I would hesitate to add additional levels as it would enable wikilawyering, which is undesirable. –Novem Linguae (talk) 04:42, 12 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
WP:OR, WP:RSWP:V, and WP:NPOV are the core policies.
They are the policies most central to making Wikipedia Wikipedia, and making it the trusted resource it is - I think we should make this importance, and the level of consensus they hold, clear.
I think it would also be beneficial to reflect the generally accepted stance that style guidelines are considered less important - to have a lower level of consensus - than guidelines generally.
However, I don’t mind too much if we simplify this down to "guidelines < policies", as this will formalise most of current practice. BilledMammal (talk) 04:49, 12 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
In the list of core policies, WP:RS should be replaced by WP:V. This is in line with the explanatory essay WP:COPO. Historically, WP:RS was created as a place to provide further explanation for which sources satisfy WP:V and that relationship still exists. Zerotalk 05:08, 12 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
You’re right, corrected. BilledMammal (talk) 05:11, 12 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think a blanket statement that all manual of style guidelines have less consensus than other guidelines is reasonable. There are a lot of guidelines out there, and the amount of discussion each received varies a lot. isaacl (talk) 06:34, 12 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I don't agree with the premise that introducing formal levels of guidance will better reflect practice and avoid wiki-lawyering. Part of the reason the community has difficulty in setting rigid levels is because in practice, it's not rare for the community to reach consensus agreement to allow exceptions for various cases. Additionally, establishing a fixed hierarchy would lead to endless debates on the appropriate level for a given collection of guidance. The second issue could be mitigated by a different decision-making method than the current consensus-based method with a "consensus can change" tradition, but that would have to come first. The first issue, though, is practically inevitable with how guidance is developed on English Wikipedia, with large group conversations amongst a changing set of participants, so maintaining consistency is unrealistic. It's endless work to try to codify all guidance to avoid exceptions, as they have a fractal nature: the closer you look into different scenarios, the more variations become apparent. isaacl (talk) 06:19, 12 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

New PAG discussion location

Currently, the guideline says that we should hold discussions on creating a new PAG at said PAG’s talk page.

This seems odd to me; for such creations we should have broad community consensus, meaning it would be better to hold the discussion at WP:VPP. This would also align with practice where we hold discussions to modify PAGs at VPP.

Is there a reason we don’t do it this way, and if there isn’t should we change it? BilledMammal (talk) 07:04, 12 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

My previous comments on this topic apply. Personally, I feel as long as appropriate notifications are provided at the expected locations, the location of the discussion can be flexible. isaacl (talk) 07:25, 12 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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