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Kyle Keeler (February 23, 2023). "How Wikipedia Erases Indigenous History". Slate. Retrieved May 26, 2024. Wikipedia's page on Jefferson, himself an architect of Indian Removal, draws on outdated scholarship from the 1970s to argue that Jefferson wanted what "was best for American Indians." One sentence alludes to recent scholarship arguing that Jefferson removed Native peoples to gain land. During a discussion about Jefferson's role in removal, the editor responsible for almost a quarter of the pages for Washington, Jefferson, and Ulysses S. Grant made false, racist claims, writing, "We certainly don't want to connotate any negativity towards Jefferson, do we? Okay, we can mention that many tribes were war like, xenophobic, refused to assimilate and that for everyone's own good and general welfare it was deemed best to keep the two diametrically opposed cultures in separate parts of the country."
That, in the first paragraph, jars with the second paragraph, with regards to him having slaves, because there's no way in hell he really cared about individual rights, unless, it seems, he was trying to impress his peers, so... it should either be deleted, or qualified with bits from the second paragraph, otherwise even just those two words are doing some PR nonsense that so many people seem obsessed to have with TJ, centuries later, it seems... also, how in the world can the page be in both Category:American_libertarians and Category:American_slave_owners...? Does everything need to be contradictory? 92.10.199.195 (talk) 09:25, 16 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Slavery was consistent with a belief in individual rights at the time, as explained by Coke and Locke. In fact, involuntary servitude is still allowed under some conditions under the U.S. 13th amendment. TFD (talk) 10:21, 16 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
At some point, though, words might as well have no definitions, and up might as well be down... either way, even if it can be qualified by some chronological context, it seems to need to be said (and, I mean, it's not like there aren't some, right now, who claim to be libertarians, who are really the opposite), and if it's too complex for the first paragraph then, perhaps, "individual rights" don't belong there, as it's not as basic as any straightforward (non-hypocritical) meaning... 92.10.199.195 (talk) 01:28, 17 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Of course this touches on one of the great discrepancies in Jefferson's thought and legacy. Presentism aside, it's more about individual rights versus public order, monarchy, authoritarian government, and what not ... than it is about equal rights versus white male supremacy. Still, if the concept of individual rights is not explained, qualified or linked (and I'm not sure a link to the article on Individual and group rights would explain it satisfactorily), perhaps it is better to remove this from the lead text. ---Sluzzelintalk01:41, 17 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The lead isn't the place to explain modern criticisms of 18th century liberalism.
Coke and Locke said that a heathen prisoner taken in a just war had no rights. Therefore he could be killed or forced into servitude. Because he was considered an enemy alien, his children inherited his status and could be killed or enslaved. That was the generally accepted view of the law in 1776.
Under current laws, people convicted of crimes can be deprived of life or liberty, and denied other constitutionally protected rights, such as the right to keep and bear arms. There are of course debates about this a well.
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